I received the following question for Q&A Week:
1)I would like to know what your views are on women working outside the home? Do you think it is a sin?
If your answer is it is not, it is something between the Lord and the individual, I have no more questions.
On the other hand, if your answer is yes, do you on principle refuse to go to female doctors, nurses, grocery store checkout ladies, bank tellers, and the 1000 different arenas women are working in today's world?
~AnneK
Hello, AnneK! Thank you for your great question. It's funny you should ask this right now, because I was just in a lengthy debate over on another blog on this very subject! :)
I'm afraid you're going to have to wait for my full answer and all the whys behind it, because I'm currently gathering all my thoughts and Scriptures for a lengthy article on this very subject, that I will be posting here on my blog in the near future. I hope you don't mind the wait; thank you for your patience!
I'll just provide you with my short answer now, and ask that you return for the rest of it, along with the Scriptures that back me up in my upcoming article. Basically, yes, I believe that it is a sin for Christian women to not be homemakers, for they are explicitly commanded to be so, and disobeying our Lord's commands is sin. I will be answering all the arguements I get from people who disagree with me, in my upcoming article, and will also be answering the question: what about single moms and older women?
No, I do not refuse to go to female nurses, etc. One thing we have to understand is that very sadly, the majority of women in the workforce are not Christians(simply because the plain truth and sad fact is that most people are not Christians). Therefore, it's not a sin for them to be in the workforce(although they would greatly benefit from following the Lord's commands that are issued to Christians). Also, going to female doctors, etc., provides us with a great mission field! If we were to refuse to go to female doctors and other females in the workforce, we would be shunning many non-Christians who need the Good News, and we would not have the mission field that we would be blessed with if we did go to these women.
Thank you so much for your question, AnneK! If you should have anymore questions, please don't hesitate to let me know-I love answering my reader's inquiries! :)
Have a blessed day,
Rebekah Ann
Rebekah, tell me where did the whole "stay-at-home daughter" thing come from? who introduced it to you? and can you back up this notion with scripture?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteHello! Thank you for your great question. Yes, I can indeed back it up with numerous Scripture passages-in fact, that's what I'm doing right now! I'm currently writing an article(the first in a 5part series on this very subject) entitled Stay-At-Home Daughterhood: A Biblical Case. It's a really long article, and I'm so excited about it! I pray that it will be a blessing to all who visit this blog.
The whole "stay-at-home daughterhood thing" came directly from the Scriptures alone. In fact, that was normative prior to radical feminism! Feminism has changed the way we all think(even Christians have been drastically changed by it, sadly), and so now, when we're presented with a Biblical doctrine we tend to kick against it and claim that that surely couldn't be found in the Scriptures anywhere. We need a HUGE change in our thinking! It's high time we stopped conforming to this sinful, God-hating world, and instead transformed our minds!
I was first introduced with the concept of stay-at-home daughterhood through a book I read at the end of 2006/beginning of 2007. I was shocked when I read this part of the book, because I'm ashamed to say, I had no idea this was taught in the Scriptures! I was very feministic in my thinking(and thus, very anti-God and anti-Scripture), and so was so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that I had no idea this sort of idea was contained there. To make sure the authors of this book were actually right and knew what they were talking about, I set out on a deep study of the Word, to "see whether these things be so." I was determined to "rightly divide the Word of truth" and to "test all things; hold fast what is good." I was simply amazed at the end of my study! I had come across even more Scripture passages supporting this idea than the authors had even referenced! I repented before the Lord for not knowing His Word, and for going against what it so clearly teaches. It is now my goal in life to teach the Scriptures(especially on the subject of Biblical daughterhood, womanhood and femininity), to refute feminism by exposing its true history and foundations, etc.
May you have a blessed day, Anonymous! Thank you again for your question, and should you have anymore, please don't hesitate to let me know!
In Christ alone, Rebekah
Hi Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteSo based on your logic, if you go to a Christian nurse or doctor, you are sinning. Becasue according to you, they are sinning by their very presence in the workforce. If you make use of their services while at the same time preaching against it, that makes you a hypocrite. I don't know about you, but I know plenty of Christian women in the workforce (myself included), so I am not sure how you can be consistent.
Anyway, I will reserve further comments until I hear what you have to say.
Have a great day!
Annie
Hello, Annie! :)
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid you misunderstood what I said.
First of all, women doctors, etc. don't have on their nametags the word "Christian" or "Non-Christian". So, when we go to one of these women, we don't know if she's a Christian or not. It's a bad idea to not go to any female worker, because we'd be shunning numerous women who desperately need the Good News of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Secondly, yes, you're right-sadly, there are many Christian women who are in the workforce these days. This is exactly what the founders of feminism wanted(more on that in a future post, as well!). I don't think it's any coincidence that the heading for the passage wherein Titus 2:5 is located is: "Qualities of a sound church". Here is another great mission field for us! Because Christian women are not to be in the workforce(according to God's holy Word), going to a Christian working woman would provide for us yet another wonderful mission field.
Thank you for your comments. I pray that you have a blessed day, as well.
Rebekah Ann
Hello, Rebekah!
ReplyDeleteI've been reading your blog for some time now, and enjoy some of the posts you have written. I just wanted to let you know that I too, am anxiously awaiting your next article on this subject. I think it is an important topic that needs to be discussed, and look forward to seeing your opinions.
~sara~
Sara,
ReplyDeleteHi! It's such a joy to meet you. I always love it when my readers comment for the first time-it's so nice to meet them. :)
Thank you so much for your interest in my upcoming posts!
Thank you again for commenting, and I hope to see you around my blog in the near future! :)
I came here from another blog and wanted to pose something that I hope you'll consider in your answer to this question: if it is not a sin for those who are not Christian women, then they are not in sin, not being Christians? I believe that if you consider something a sin - a missing of that perfect mark that was set up for us to follow - then it is a sin for believers and non-believers alike. But I also do not believe that it is a sin for a woman to work outside of the home. It is not wise or profitable, very often harmful in many ways, and certainly something to aspire to NOT do, at all costs, I think. Especially must a woman consider her heart and purpose (she who feels she must work). And for a woman such as you or I who feel we must stay at home - for us, it would be a sin.
ReplyDeletePS - that being said, I do want you to know that I appreciate your work here!
ReplyDeleteHey Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteI guess you knew that I would jump in here on this topic. I have been thinking about the right way to word this question. Could you elaborate on your defination of a homemaker? What does a Homemaker's heart and actions look like to you. What will you do if one day because of unsforseen situations you have to work outside the home? How are you currently preparing for your adulthood and are your plans contigent on having a husband or a Father to serve?
You know I have to say something on this issue.
ReplyDeleteYou are very wrong and naive to claim that it is a sin for a woman who is not a homemaker!!!
I am 30 yrs old, not married, and I work a fulltime job plus I own my own part-time business on the side. You can read for yourself in Scripture where there were other unmarried women who worked! And God blessed them and used them.
So you need to rethink your whole view on "all women are to be homemakers" because not every woman is intended to marry. Even Scripture clearly points that out!
So be very careful on your condemnation of us women who are Christians and who are not married and/or work fulltime jobs.
Like the one gal said above, you appear to be a hypocrite on this issue as you do not believe women should work yet you go to women who do work. You cannot have the cake and eat it, too. Just by your own actions you are a walking contradiction. I have discussed this very thing with my nonChristian friends and they agree - you cannot say one thing and do something else. They think if you believe working is a sin for a woman then you should not patron those women who do work because you are only sending mixed signals. Something to think about....
USA,
ReplyDeleteOnce again, please allow me to first make my Biblical case before you call me wrong and naive for having the beliefs I do. That isn't fair, and I ask that you give me more of a chance in the future.
Also, please do not put words in my mouth. When did I ever attempt to say that every single woman in the world is called by God to marry? I never said that!
Also, please go back and reread what I wrote before you write me off as a hypocrite.
Have a blessed day and thank you for your input,
Rebekah Ann
Calamity Jean,
ReplyDeleteHi! :) Thanks so much for your comment. I also want to thank you for posting what you did in a kind and Christ-like manner.
A homemaker is one who does not have an outside career out in the workforce. She may or may not have a homebusiness. Her works are all focused in the home, and for the good of it.
A homemaker's heart and actions differ from homemaker to homemaker. Christian homemakers should be in the home because they feel that that is honoring to God. They should view their work as lasting and highly influential, and should know that that work will influence further generations for Christ.
If, as an adult, I lost my husband or my husband and I find ourselves in a very tight financial situation, I will still refuse to go work out in the workforce. How unhonoring to God it would be for me to be very pro-homemaker and to know that that's what God commanded me to do, simply to turn my back on Him when things get hard! That'd be like me saying, "This situation is too hard for you, God, you can't provide for me through this bleak situation, so I'm rushing out to the workforce to provide for and take care of myself. My trust and faith in you is so small, that I simply cannot rely on you in this instance." What a horrible witness to the watching world!!
I'm planning for the best case scenario. I will (because the Scriptures command it) remain in my father's house under his protection until I am given in marriage. While I'm currently under his roof, I'm preparing for the high callings of wife, mother and homemaker. If something unforseen does happen, however(such an me losing my husband), I will know that this is all part of the Lord's plan, and will trust lovingly in Him, knowing that "all things work together for good for them who love the Lord".
Thank you again for your input! :)
May you have a blessed day,
Rebekah Ann
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LisaM,
Hello! Thank you so much for your comment. I don't think you've ever commented here before, so allow me to welcome you to my blog! I hope you return often. :)
It's not a sin for non-Christians, because it's not a command issued forth to all female humanity. It's not part of the mark we miss as sinners. It's a command only issued to born-again Christian women, which is why it's not a sin for non-Christian women to not be homemakers. The heading for this Titus passage is "Qualities of a Sound Church".
I'm a bit concerned over your definition of what sin is in this matter. Our circumstances are never allowed to dictate what sin is-only God's holy Word has the authority to do that.
Thank you so much for your kind words, LisaM! :)
May the Lord richly bless you,
Rebekah Ann
Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteI so admire your commitment to please God in your every circumstance. While we do differ on a few points, it's always an encouragement to see the grace with which you communicate with dissenters and agreers alike. :)
It is my belief that a woman's primary sphere of influence should be in the home. However, I realize that there are times and situations that might make that impossible for a young maiden or a married woman, and I most certainly respect that as well.
I would like to point out that, should anything happen to your husband, the Bible makes it clear that it is your local church's duty to help widows and orphans!
Jasmine,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind words, dear friend! I try my hardest to respond to others in a Christ-honoring way no matter what. Sometimes it's hard, but I know that "a gentle answer turneth away wrath", so I strive to please my Savior by issuing forth that gentle answer.
You're so right about the church's responsibility. My heart goes out to all the single mothers who feel like they must work-their churches and families are really falling down on their God-given responsibilities!
May you have a blessed day, dear Jasmine!
In Christ alone,
Rebekah Ann
(I tried to post this before but I don't think it came through. Trying again.)
ReplyDeleteHi Rebekah,
Like Jaybird, I really do admire your enthusiasm for the Lord. When I ask you questions, please believe I really want to understand you and your positions, regardless of what I might agree with and what I might disagree with.
That said, here are a couple more questions based on what you say in this post and the comments -
I guess I don't understand why to be a keeper at home a woman must never be in the workforce. Why can she not keep her home and work outside it, both? For just one instance, a lady who lives in my hometown has a husband and children and has stayed home with them, but she has also worked at a library some nights. Since she works outside of her home, is she not a homemaker anymore?
And do you assume God will send you a spouse? What if no one you can love in that special way crosses your path? Will you continue to stay home with your father? I know he delights in protecting you and you delight in helping him and your mother, so I feel sure you will be happy. (That is a very sweet picture of you two, btw.) But suppose a lot of time passes and he goes to be with the Lord - what then? What is the game plan? Or do you not know and just trust the Lord?
-Monika
Now I am really confused...it's only a sin for born-again Christian woman to be in the workforce? Are you implying that if you are a non-Christian and working that's ok, i.e, you're not sinning, but once you convert to Christianity and are still in the workforce, you are sinning? Is that what you are getting at?
ReplyDeleteAnd those of us who are Christians and in the workforce are sinning? Like USA and others, I know plenty of Christian women who are in the workforce. In fact where I work there are several of us and we often have discussions about our faiths and different denominations which are really enlightening. In a sense we are having fellowship in the workplace, and yet, according to your standards, we are sinning.
Rebekah, I realize that you are trying to express yourself, and that we come from different denominations, but I do find this notion that because I choose to work, I am sinning, rather offensive.
Hello, Maggie!
ReplyDeleteThank you for your input.
Yes, it's only a sin for Christian women to be in the workforce-that's quite evident, because if you search the Scriptures, that command is only issued to Christian women. If you become a Christian and are in the workforce and know what the Bible says regarding a woman's role, but remain in the workforce, yes, you are sinning.
I'm sorry that you find it offensive. I truly am. But it's what God's Word teaches. In both areas(Titus 2:5 and 1 Tim. 5:14) where Christian women are commanded to be homemakers, this command is directly followed by the words: "so that the Word of God will not be blasphemed"(Titus 2:5) or "to give no opportunity for the adversary to speak reproachfully(1 Tim. 5:14).
I pray that you have a blessed day, Maggie!
May the Lord be with you,
Rebekah Ann
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi, Monika! :)
Thank you for your kindness!
No, a woman cannot be a homemaker and work outside the home at the same time. Either she's a homemaker or she's a careerwoman. If you look at Prov. 31, it becomes so evident that not only is this woman a very industrious homemaker, but also that if she had a career outside the home stealing her time, all of her other work would fall down the tubes. If you work outside the home and attempt to keep your home clean and productive as well, something will fail! Whether it's your outside job, your relationship with your family, or the home. I have to wonder-if that women you mentioned works at the library some nights, when does she have time with her husband and children?
Thank you for your kind words regarding that picture. I like it, as well. :) It was taken on Easter Sunday this year. I firmly believe that the Lord is right now preparing a young man for me, to be my husband and godly head. The Lord has given me such a HUGE desire to be a wife and mommy, that I'm sure He has called me to be such. But, if that is not His will for my life, then yes, I will remain under my father's roof, and will be thankful for the time I have with him and my mother. If the Lord takes my father, then I will still remain in my childhood home-under my mother's protection.
Thank you for your comment! :)
Rebekah Ann
Since when does good managers of the household equate not being able to work outside of the home? I'm sorry Rebekah but I don't see these as mutually exclusive entities.
ReplyDeleteBoth of these passages of Scripture speak of being good managers of the household. (NRSV) They do not say 'cannot work outside of the home'. Which translation are you using?
The other translation that is often used in the Anglican church (the church I belong to, aka the Episcopal Church in the USA) is the NIV and it states that women are to be busy in the home.
Again, I ask you, how does being busy in the home mean you are not permitted to be in the workforce; or furthermore, if you are in the workforce you are sinning? Are you implying that if you are not good managers of the home or not being busy at home than the devil (adversary) will have an opportunity to wedge its way into your life? And if I follow your logic, if I am in the workforce (implying I am not a good manager of my household) than I am fodder for the adversary?
I apologize if these questions annoy you Rebekah, but I am curious to understand the logic in your argument.
Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteI wrote a comment earlier that didn't post but I want to respond to your most recent comment.
I have to disagree with you 100%!! I have always tried to treat with you respect but I have to say that you are indeed a naive young woman. The Bible does direct women to be keepers at home but it does not forbid them from earning an income. I say that you are naive b/c at your age you have never managed a home, so how can you make the broad statement that it can't be done in conjunction with a career? I think that you have been told that it can't be done so thats how you think. Do you know any women who work? I am sad that companies such as Vision Forum and websits like LAF have painted a very unrealistic view of the working Christian woman and her home. It is portrayed as a messy, disorganized unpleasant place to live. I think that you would be surprised at how homey, clean and organized most of the homes are. check out my blog, I just posted pics of my home...can you not see where my heart is? Maybe there are some who can't handle it all but many of us do and do it with with the understand that we are truly within God's plan for our lives.
Another thing that I want to add is that being a homemaker is about more than just the physical things...its about the heart of your home. Where is it centered. A Christian's home should be a place of rest, fellowship and relaxtion. These things are not contingent on who works in or out of the home.
My hope for you is that you will take the time to get to know Godly women who don't fit your ideal mold. Learn from their lives and look at their hearts.
Rebekah, I think that I will bow out of this discussion because I am sure that I have no more won you over than you have won me. I hope that you will open up your heart and mind a little to people who make different choices. Just know that as always you are in my heart and prayers and I look forward to reading further posts from you.
I came back from sinning er working (LOL) and saw the many comments. I know it is a hot topic and so wasn't surprised to see it.
ReplyDeleteFirst the good parts. I saw your picture. You are a pretty girl. I love your enthusiasm to obey the Lord. And this is going to be a long comment :)
Okay, now to the meat, I was sad reading what you had to say in the comments. Not because I find it offensive. I know my Bible well enough and have been a Christian more years than you have been alive. I am not swayed by the new waves of doctrines floating around. It is sad because you are making a VERY GRAVE mistake of calling something sin when the Bible does not. You are calling godly women who are Christians - who lived, breathed and studied the Bible
much longer than you - sinners when the Bible does not. Based on only your opinion. You and I need to give account to a righteous and holy God on every word spoken/written. So please be assured that I do not write this lightly.
1. You mentioned that the context for Titus 2 is the church where 2:5says women are to be homemakers (NKJV) (more on that later). Why did you fail to metion that the context of 1 Timothy 5 is widows specifically and not all women?
2. Titus 2:5 says women are to be homemakers, it does not have the qualifier "only". It is your OPINION that women cannot be homemakers and career women. It might not be the greatest idea for a mother of 4 children (without a helper) to be on a high stress fast paced career, but that does not make it unbiblical. How many women do you personally know who combine both home making and career outside home?
3. The verses you mentioned about talks about not giving chance for the adversary to talk reproachfully was not interpreted by you right. Read both verses in context. The chapter talks about widows being busy bodies, tattlers etc. And v 14 starts; "Therefore..." When a sentence starts with therefore, it is a conclusion of ideas presented before that. The idea being that women instead of going from house to house gosipping learn to control themselves.
It would be good to take a long, hard look at your heart and discern your motive for embellishing Scripture to better suit your life choice.
Annie
I have to say that I truly wish people would stop putting words in my mouth. Before they post comments on here(which I'm very happy that they do-please don't get me wrong!!), I wish they would go back and read very carefully what I wrote and what I did not write.
ReplyDeleteThank you for understanding.
Rebekah, you seem like such a sweet, earnest young girl. I remember being quite passionate about my ideas and oh so sure of myself back when I was your age, so many years ago.
ReplyDeleteSometimes people who were in my life back then like to remind me, gently but with great humor, of how God has in the intervening years "corrected" me.
One of the things He had to do in my life was to show me that it was simply flat out wrong (excuse me for being blunt) for a young thing to try to usurp the Titus 2:3-5 role that God clearly gave to the older women. There is a reason for that. As you grow older, and begin to live for God in a more real and mature way, as you leave behind childish things and thoughts, it will suddenly become clear to you why God never intended for young girls to attempt to tell older, wiser women how to be homemakers --- or even to judge whether or not they were homemakers!
Someday, like me, you will no doubt both laugh and cringe over some of the things you now do in your youthful zeal. Perhaps you will take my words to heart and have less regrets when you grow up. I obviously don't know you well enough to know how humble or teachable you are now.
Frankly, had I spoken to older women as you have in these comments, my parents would not only have taken me severely to task, but they would have insisted that I humble myself, make apologies all around, and keep my mouth shut around older women so that I could learn from them.
But I realize that I'm terribly old-fashioned these days, and that many young girls think they can do and say whatever they want --- and they have no qualms about rebuking the very women they should be learning from!
Maggie,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment.
The command is to be a homemaker(Titus 2:5) or to be a manager of the home(1 Tim. 5:14). If you're not obeying these commands, you're in sin. Disobeying any of God's commands is sin, plain and simple. You cannot be a homemaker and work outside the home at the same time. Either you're a homemaker or you're not.
I use the NKJV. You say that NIV says women should be busy in the home-what does that mean? That she's supposed to be busy in the home! She's not supposed to be busy elsewhere! She's to be busy in the home; it's high time that we all(myself included, so please don't misunderstand me) begin interpreting Scripture exactly the way it's written.
Isn't that exactly what the text says? Please forgive me, I know I'm probably coming across as sounding saucy, and I sincerely and wholeheartedly apologize. 1 Tim. 5:14(the passage we are discussing at the moment) does indeed teach that the woman who is not a good manager of her home gives opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. I didn't come up with that-the Lord Jesus Christ, the Author of those words did! Please do not get angry with me-I simply quoted a verse.
If the Scriptures only said that the Christian woman must ensure that her home is taken care of, then I would say, "Do what you want-be a homemaker or a careerwoman, as long as your home is taken care of." But it simply does not say that. Rather, the Lord specifically commands Christian women to be homemakers. No ifs ands or buts in the passage!
Please don't apologize. If I was somehow unclear in my prior comments, then it's I that should apologize-not you, for simply wanting to understand my argument more.
May the Lord bless you this day,
Rebekah Ann
Rebekah, you wrote,
ReplyDelete"Yes, it's only a sin for Christian women to be in the workforce-that's quite evident, because if you search the Scriptures, that command is only issued to Christian women."
God gave the Ten Commandments specifically to His chosen people, the Israelites. By your logic, would that mean that adultery, stealing, covetousness, etc. were only sins for the Israelites and not the surrounding Gentile nations?
Also, how do you explain the Godly women who worked outside of the home in the Bible? For instance Ruth worked in the fields and even after marrying Boaz and bearing a son, her mother-in-law Naomi became the child's nurse. The Shulammite in the Song of Solomon worked in the field and the woman of great price in Proverbs 31 worked outside the home. The Bible says that she made fine linens and sold them and delivered them to the merchants. She even considered a field and bought it (real estate). You cannot unequivocally say that this woman was a 'stayer' at home.
I agree that a woman who wishes to please the Lord will have her heart centered around her home. I agree with Patsy Rae Dawson in her book 'Marriage: A Taste of Heaven, Vol 2" when, in speaking of wives, she says,
"If a woman wants to enjoy all life offers, she centers her heart around her home. As a result of a woman's deep and abiding love for her husband and children, her sensible approach to life, and her purity, the affectionate woman enjoys taking care of her home and transforming it into a haven of peace and refuge from the world for her family. She fully understands how much they need her tranqullity and warmth. Her husband relishes the thought of coming home to her oasis and soaking up the strength she imparts. Basking in the knowledge that mother cares, her children gain self-confidence in the tenderness that surrounds her. As a wife, mother, and woman, she eagerly makes her home enjoyable for those she loves."
I also agree with her when she explains that
"the woman who seeks to please God is a "worker at home". This...thought does not mean "stayers at home," but "keepers or guardians of the home". A woman may live her whole life without ever earning a paycheck and still not be a keeper at home because of her attitudes."
She goes on to point out the contrast in the frustrated wife whose "feet do not abide at home", a woman who lacks pleasure in her family and home. And yet that verse does not say that the frustrated woman 'works' outside the home.
Are you sure you want to dogmatically state that a woman who works outside her husband's home for any reason whatsoever is in sin?
Also, are you sure your definition of a homemaker lines up with the Bible's definition of a keeper or guardian of the home?
You wrote:
"A homemaker is one who does not have an outside career out in the workforce. She may or may not have a homebusiness. Her works are all focused in the home, and for the good of it."
You are assuming that every Christian woman that holds a job of any kind in the workforce is a 'career woman' and that she is not, or is unable to be, the guardian of her home because of it. As I pointed out earlier, many women of the Bible worked outside of their homes and yet their hearts were still centered around their home. Proverbs 31 states the the woman of great price purchased a field and planted a vineyard. You cannot infer from that verse that the vineyard was in her backyard, at home. How does the lady who works at her local library one or two nights a week What is the difference between the woman who mentioned here that she worked at her local library one or two nights a week and that of the woman of great price who may have gone out to work her vineyard one or two nights a week?
You also wrote the following:
"If, as an adult, I lost my husband or my husband and I find ourselves in a very tight financial situation, I will still refuse to go work out in the workforce. How unhonoring to God it would be for me to be very pro-homemaker and to know that that's what God commanded me to do, simply to turn my back on Him when things get hard!"
You are implying that any Christian woman who has ever found herself in the workforce (even if it is not her foremost desire) has 'turned her back on God'. Rebekah, do you realize the weight of your words?
Do you realize that there are many godly, mature, good, zealous Christian women who have found themselves in life situations that they never could have imagined who now must work to support themselves and their young children? Women who are the victims of their husbands' very heinous sins? Women who have lost their husbands to death or permanent injury at a very young age? Families who find themselves in very tight financial situations? Women who are virtuous women and did all the right things but still find themselves in trials in which God is sovereign and is using their trials for His glory and their good? Do the Scriptures give us clearance to judge in all these situations and declare our sisters in sin, turning their backs on God? I personally know women in such painful situations who have not only NOT turned their back on God (in spite of having to go out into the workforce) but have grown in their faith in ways that are most impressive, all the while continuing to be the guardians of their homes.
What of the women in foreign lands who must leave their babies with a nurse (as did Ruth) and work alongside their husbands (or not) in the fields in order to feed those babies their daily food? Are they sinning? What of the ladies in foreign lands whose husbands are imprisoned for their faith? Are they sinning if they must work outside of their home for their daily bread? These are not career women whose hearts are not centered on Christ and home. On the contrary, all these women I've mentioned have their hearts centered on their homes and family and for that very reason are working to aid in their support. They are being good guardians of their homes. Women who are trusting and clinging to their God in their trials.
Yes, the church does have a responsibility to aid the widows and orphans, but only widows of a certain age are to be put on the roll for receiving regular support. And sadly, particularly here in America, the church is in a sad state and many women find themselves without the aid of their Christian brethren.
We cannot say that every Christian woman who finds herself in a trial of any kind is in sin if she has to work outside the home. There is nothing wrong with planning for the best-case-scenario. There is nothing wrong with desiring to be a wife and mother. These are all good things. But none of us knows all of what life holds in store for us.
One other thing I'd like to address is in regard to what you stated here:
"I was first introduced with the concept of stay-at-home daughterhood through a book I read at the end of 2006/beginning of 2007... I was very feministic in my thinking(and thus, very anti-God and anti-Scripture), and so was so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that I had no idea this sort of idea was contained there..."
By your own admission you are young in your understanding of the Scriptures particularly as regards this teaching on women and work. In giving the list of qualifications for elder in I Timothy, Paul states that one must not be a novice. Considering the dangers of a young convert possibly becoming puffed up with pride and falling into the condemnation of the devil, do you think it is wise at your age and station to be publicly teaching on this issue, especially when the Scriptures clearly charge the older women of experience to train the younger women in these very things?
I am also concerned that the lines are being blurred between the roles of wives and daughters. Scripture very clearly teaches that the relationship between husband and wife is unique in all of creation. There is no closer relationship on earth than that of husband and wife and it is a mystery. The marriage relationship is to mirror that of Christ and His bride, the church. Daughterhood is something altogether different. It's wonderful when a daughter wants to train for wifehood and motherhood. But I find an awful lot of the emphasis is on the daughter's relationship with her father and I don't hear much regarding Mom. Isn't the best mentor for a young woman her mother? Doesn't scripture teach that the older, mature women are to train the younger women what it means to love their husbands and children, what it is to keep the home, etc? I don't in anyway wish to demean the role of fathers in the upbringing of their children or in leading their homes. I am just concerned that in many ways, the relationship of father and daughter has been set up in almost an idolatrous way in much of the teaching that is coming out these days in regard to the role of women.
For the record, I am a forty-something wife and homeschooling mother of four wonderful blessings - three of which are girls. I will soon celebrate my twentieth wedding anniversary. In all those twenty years I have never had to (or desired to) work outside my home even through a six-month-layoff for my husband in the early years. We had one little one at the time. Our oldest will graduate from homeschooling in a month and will happily continue to live at home while continuing to pursue, and grow in her many talents and interests. It is her desire to do so and an added blessing to us. She too desires to one day be a wife and mother.
Having said all that, Rebekah, I do not dare to tread where I believe the Scriptures don't. I would not, and could not, proclaim my sisters in Christ who for many reasons find themselves working in various capacities outside the home or pursuing various activities and education outside the home to be in sin.
Rebekah, I believe you to be very zealous for the Lord. I have no doubt that you want to do right before Him. I would encourage you in your desire to one day be a godly wife and mother. I hope that you will accept my comments in the spirit in which they are given and fully consider the weight of your words as regards these issues being discussed. Please consider that the views you hold regarding your Christian sisters being in sin may in fact be in error. You may wish to more fully and prayerfully continue studying this issue before publicly making doctrinaire statements on this issue.
Thanks for your time in reading and considering my comments and concerns.
Blessings!
Calamity Jean,
ReplyDeleteYou said: "The Bible does direct women to be keepers at home but it does not forbid them from earning an income." Where did I ever say that the Scriptures forbid a woman from earning an income? I never ever said that! If I had said that, then you could absolutely call me a naive young woman, for the Prov. 31 woman herself earned an income! But here's the difference-she earned that income through her home business-not through working outside in the workforce. In fact, she didn't even sell her homemade goods in the marketplace herself, like I always thought she had. Rather,(after more study of this passage) I discovered that she provides the sashes to the merchants-the ones who sell in the marketplace. Also, you said that the Scriptures direct a woman to be a keeper at home. That means that she's in sin if she isn't one, does it not?
I agree that there are women who can possibly handle a career and a home, etc. without anything seeming to fail. There are some women who are capable of that-through time management, etc. But it's the exception, not the rule. At the same time, there are even some homemakers who feel like they simply can't get everything done in a day that they need to. Yes, I do know working women-the majority of the women in my extended family are not homemakers.
To be honest with you, I thank God for Vision Forum. He used them and LAF to grab ahold of my heart and to show me what His Word actually says. I kicked and fought agianst Him for some time, but He stuck with me nonetheless, and revealed to me what His Word actually(and quite clearly) teaches! Something you should know about Vision Forum and LAF is that the majority of these people were not raised believing these things. Rather, the Lord(as He did with me) grabbed a hold of their rebellious hearts and taught them what His Word actually says. The majority of them had been deceived by "Christian feminism" and thus had blinded eyes to what His Word actually teaches. But the Lord was merciful, and reavealed to them what His Word does in fact say.
You're right-I have not managed a home before. But I'm currently in "homemaker bootcamp" and know how to manage a home. And you know what I've discovered? There's NO way on this earth that either my mother nor I could manage the home if we worked outside the home as well-no matter how much time management we used! I don't have an outside job and neither does my mother, and we still find ourselves at the end of the day sometimes saying, "Where did all that time go? What did we even get accomplished today??"
Kyla, I'm sorry, but you cannot be in God's plan for your life if you're disobeying Him. I may come across as harsh, but this is true. Titus 2:5 says that God's Word will be blasphemed(or reviled) if we're not homemakers. That's very, very serious and cannot be ignored!
Thank you for your kindness, Kyla. You are a dear lady, and I want you to know that if I came across as disrespectful, I'm very sorry.
Have a blessed day,
Rebekah Ann
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Annie,
Hello! Thank you for your input.
Thank you so much for your kindness. :)
The Bible makes it clear that it's sin to disobey God's commands. We would say that someone who lied is sinning, would we not? Therefore, why the change in the hermeneutic when we come to Titus 2? We don't have the authority to say, "Yes, God, I agree with you that lying's a sin, but I'm sorry I can't agree with you over here in this Titus 2 stuff." Not only are we disobeying a direct command, but the Bible says that God's Word will be blasphemed if Christian women are not homemakers. Here is a huge offense!
Also, this is not some new wave of doctrine. This is the way Titus 2:5 was interpreted for hundreds of years-until feminism came into the picture. Which is really sad, since feminism was begun by Karl Marx and his little allies, whose goals in life were to "destroy capitalism and dethrone God".(more on that in a future post. I'm currently reading many books by Marx, Engles, and Lenin so that I can accurately prove the history of feminism). How horrible it is that we Christians are aiding "the Father of Communism" in his plan to dethrone God!
You're exactly right about the context of 1 Tim. 5:14-it is speaking to young widows. I didn't mention that simply because at the moment when I brought that passage up, I was simply quoting the 2 verses I know of that command women to be homemakers. If Christian married women are commanded to be homemakers, and young widows are commanded to be homemakers, and the Church is commanded to provide for old widows, it appears to me that the Lord is attempting to keep women out of the workforce at all costs! We would probably usually think that a widow is free to do what she wants-she can work if she wants to. But, not according to God-He doesn't want her in the workforce!
As to your second argument, Titus 2:5 commands women to be homemakers. Therefore, it should be clear that to not be a homemaker(i.e. work outside the home) is a sin. God probably felt that we should be smart enough to understand that from what He put in the Scriptures.
I personally know many women who attempt to combine work and home. And they are very stressed, busy, and some of them don't have very good health.
You're right with what you said about the context of 1 Tim. 5:14. There's yet another reason why the Lord commanded young widows to be homemakers-so that they won't be busybody gossipers. If they're not homemakers, they will give the adversary opportunity to speak reproachfully. That's what God in His Word says-that's not something I pulled out of the hat.
Thank you for your comment, Ma'am. May the Lord bless you this day.
Rebekah
I have to admit that I find it interesting that I'm getting yelled at, called a naive hypocrite, and told to read my Bible more accurately, simply because I quoted 2 Scriptures! I didn't add anything to them, I simply quoted them and interpreted them literally. Perhaps then, it's not I that people should be mad at. Rather, they should be mad at and argue with the God Who wrote the Scriptures that I simply quoted. People get so mad at me when I quote and interpret these Scriptures, that I almost have to wonder if they're getting so mad at me because they know this is what the Bible teaches, and so they know what they're doing is wrong, so they get on the defensive and feel like they must interpret it in some other way so that they're off the hook.
ReplyDeleteI don't know, just some possibilities, I suppose.
Hello, Rebecca!!
ReplyDeleteThank you for your input, as well.
If I ever came across as disrespectful, as a know-it-all, as saucy, rude, etc., please know that I am ashamed and humbled by this knowledge, and aim to receive all my readers' forgiveness. I have told numerous women on here that if I came across as disrespectful to them, that I was indeed very sorry, and never meant to come across that way.
At the same time, regardless of my age, as a Christian, I am commanded to speak the truth in love. If someone is in sin(by God's standards, not man-made standards) then it is my God-given responsibility to point that out, to exhort and edify that brother or sister in Christ, and to seek to see them go back on the right path.
Again, I sincerely want to thank you for this comment of yours. I did indeed take it to heart and will strive all the more in the future to ensure that I speak in a highly respectful, Christ-like manner.
Many blessings to you, dear sister!
~Rebekah Ann
Hi, I am at work, so cannot reply in a detailed manner now, but just wanted to ask you this. Do you believe Biblical truths are applicable to all cultures, across the world uniformly?
ReplyDeleteHello, Denise!
ReplyDeleteI don't think you've ever commented here before, so allow me to welcome you to my blog! :) Thank you for your input, Ma'am.
No, I would not say that the 10 commandments were only for the Israelites, because they (minus the one on the Sabbath which
was done away with when Christ came) are all issued to the Gentiles, as well, in the NT.
Being a keeper at home does not mean that you stay in your home every moment of the day, as some try to imply. Homemakers
visit sick neighbors, go to the grocery store, go to the movies, serve elderly people who need their own homes cleaned, etc.
To say that a keeper at home or homemaker is a stayer at home at all times is false. But it's evident that she doesn't work
in the workforce, because you can't be called a homemaker if you work elsewhere.
First of all, it would be false for any of us to try to say that the Prov. 31 woman worked outside the home. Because it's
very clear she did not. This passage makes it clear that she had numerous home businesses. Also, she did not work in the
marketplace, selling her wares. Rather, she provided the sashes to the merchants-the ones who sold items in the marketplace.
She did not go to the marketplace to seel her items, but provided them to the workers in the marketplace. Also, she did
indeed consider a field, buy it, resell it, and from her profits plant a well-producing vinyard. That doesn't mean that she
worked in the workforce! That would be like me buying the lot next door to me, resell it to make a profit, and then plant a
garden in a vinyard I bought. Does that make me someone who works outside my home? Of course not. But I would be doing exactly
what the Prov.
31 woman did. When someone sells their home, does that mean they're in real estate? No. They simply used the services of
someone who is. Also, we don't know where her vinyard was! For us to say that it could not have been "in her own back yard"
so to speak, would be false, because we don't know where it was. It would be false for me to say that without a shadow of a
doubt, it was in her backyard, because the Lord doesn't offer to us that information. But, from reading the rest of the
passage, it's clear that she owned a LARGE estate. So, she could have bought more land that was near the home and that could
have been what became her vinyard. It's also clear in this passage that she didn't work in the workforce, and that she was
very busy in her home. Therefore, it seems rather clear that her vinyard must have been probably somewhere close to her home.
Just because she works in her vinyard, doesn't mean that we can call her a woman who worked in the workforce. If I have a
vinyard a mile from my home, does that mean I work in the workforce? Of course not-it simply means that I'm a gardener. But
whether or not her vinyard was in her backyard or across town, she still is not working in the workforce-that vinyard is owned
by her.
As to Ruth, yes, she did work in the fields in order to care for her mother-in-law. Now, we could say that she should have
waited on the Lord to provide, but nonetheless, it is true that she worked in the field. There are two things we must
understand. First of all, the command to be a homemaker had not been issued yet. Secondly, consider the harlot Rahab. She is
praised in the book of Hebrews for her outstanding faith and for saving the Hebrew spies. But, in the process, she lied, which
is a clear sin. We could say that she shouldn't have lied but should rather have trusted more and had more faith in the Lord,
knowing that He would provide for her and the spies regardless. But, the fact remains that she is praised for her faith and is
not condemned for her lie. Because of this fact, can we then say that it's not a sin anymore to lie? Of course not. It's the
same sort of thing with Ruth and others. And, you're also right about the Shulammite woman-she did work in the fields.Agriculture
was one of the most common methods of earning an income in those days.But look closely at verse 6 of chapter 1. She says that
her mother's sons
put her in charge of the vinyard. It's implied that this is the family vinyard. The fact that she worked in the family
vinyard does not mean that she was working out in the workforce, because children work on the family farm all the time.
I enjoyed reading that woman's writings. I agreed with her to a very large degree. That book of hers sounds good. Thank you
for sharing! :)
What verse about a frustrated woman's feet not remaining at home are you talking about? I only know of 1 verse that goes like
that, and it is Proverbs 7:11, and is referring to the crafty harlot. The verse goes, "She was loud and rebellious, her feet
would not remain at home." And this is another verse that shows that the Lord doesn't like it when Christian women are not
busy in their homes. Now, I want to point 2 things out. First off, I am by NO means trying to imply that women who work outside
the home are all harlots. That would be absurd in the highest degree! Secondly, I don't take this verse to an unBiblical extreme
as some do, when they say that this verse shows that a homemaker cannot ever set foot outside her home. This argument. as well,
is of course absurd! :)
Yes, I do stick by my belief that Christian women who work outside their husband's home are in sin, for 2 reasons: it's a
direct disobedience to one of God's clear and explicit commands, and this action causes God's Word to be blasphemed, which
is a HUGELY serious thing, obviously.
Yes, I do stick by my definition of a homemaker, because the Scripture uses the word "homemaker" and the dictionary's
(depending on which one you use)definition is "One who manages a household, especially as one's main daily activity; a person,
esp. a housewife, who manages a home; one who works in the home; a wife who who manages a household while her husband earns the
family income.
I suppose that I was unclear. I know that not all women who work in the workforce are "careerwomen" with the career mindset.
If I didn't make that clear, I apologize!! You said that you cannot infer from the Prov. 31 passage that her vinyard
was at home. Neither can you infer otherwise-we don't know where it was. The Proverbs 31 woman would not have worked in her
vinyard at night. You can't do any gardening when there is not light.
I clearly, once again, did not use my wording in the clearest of terms as I should have. I was not trying to say that all
women who find themselves in the workforce have turned their back on God. That's basically what I would be doing, though, if
I did what I said in that comment. It's basically like turning your back on God and not trusting fully in Him to provide for
you when you go out into the workforce. The Lord will not issue forth to us a command(i.e. be a homemaker) and then leave
us in a situation where it is impossible to be one. The Lord will provide, no matter what. We need to strengthen our faith
and trust in Him, knowing that He will never ever leave us or forsake us.
I understand that there are situaions as the ones you mentioned. And in each one, my heart goes out to those poor women-I
truly pity them. But, we have to understand that God's commands stand, no matter what our situation may be. Young widows are
to still be homekeepers. Older widows are to be cared for by the church. Family and friends need to step in and help care
for the women who find themselves in those various situations. Our churches and extended families are falling down on their
job these days, and it's really sad! The woman who is in a tight financial situation has the rare and blessed opportunity to
trust in the Lord like never before! That may be precisely the reason our Sovereign Lord brought about that situation-to test
that woman's faith and trust in Him. The Lord is completely sovereign, and you're right-the Lord sometimes uses a person's
sin and the hardest and most trying of circumstances to bring about good for us and glory for Him. I'm not seeking to be
judgmental!! That is the farthest thing from my mind. It is my desire to exhort, encourage and edify my fellow brothers and
sisters in Christ.
We cannot be guardians of our homes if we are guarding our workplaces out in the workforce. How can you gaurd a home if
you're rarely there?
Women who find themselves in desperate need of food must trust in the Lord to provide that food, and those around them who
are better off financially must help them! If a woman was homeless and had a starving little toddler, would it be ok for her to
steal food from the grocery store in order to feed that little one? Of course not. We might understand why she did what she
did, but that doesn't negate the fact that she broke one of the 10 commandments. We are not allowed to disobey one of God's
commands simply because we have a great need-it is in that time that we are able to show the Lord how strong our faith is in
Him, and wait for Him to miraculously work. This reminds me of George Mueller, a man who opened a large orphanage. He never
asked people for money or food to provide for these needy children. Thus, he often found himself late at night knowing that
there was absolutely no food left at all for the children's breakfast the next morning. He could have gone back on his promise
to the Lord that he would never ask others for help. That would have been the easy way out. But he wasn't willing to do that-he
knew that he must trust in the Lord, for we cannot please God unless we have faith. So, he would dedicate the entire night to
prayer that the Lord would provide in some miraculous way. And you know what? He always did! The Lord always richly blessed
Mr. Mueller for his faith and trust in Him. The next morning, Mr. Mueller would find a truckload of food donated by somebody
that had heard of his ministry. The Lord does indeed work in mysterious ways and always takes care of His children, no matter
how bleak the circumstance may appear. If I was needy and rushed out to the workforce because of it, I may very well miss out
on a rich blessing-the blessing of being able to see the miraculous Lord provide for me in the most amazing of ways.
When I wrote what I did, I was referring to the fact that I had no idea stay-at-home daughterhood was taught anywhere in the
Scriptures. I also had no idea that women were commanded to be homemakers, either! I'm so ashamed to say that I had no idea
there was even a Titus 2:5! Talk about not knowing the Word! The Lord has revealed to me truths in the Scriptures, and it is
therefore my God-given duty to proclaim those! The thought that children or teens or young adults should just be quiet and
not teach anybody anything from God's Word is contrary to God's Word itself! The Lord called Jeremiah to be a prophet to Israel
when he was only 13! The Lord made Josiah king when he was 8! 1 Tim. 4:12 commands us to not let anyone despise our youth but
to be an example to our fellow believers. Simply because we're young doesn't mean we're to be silent! Quite the contrary! The
Lord oftentimes uses young, inexperienced people to do great things for His Kingdom. I am to speak the Biblical truth in love
to all my fellow believers-no matter what age they are.
I agree wholeheartedly that marriage is completely different than any other relationship in all of creation. Likewise, I heartily
agree with you that daugtherhood is not to be likened to marriage. But as daughters, we are to prepare for the blessed and
high calling of marriage(as are sons). The plain and simple truth is that we must submit to our fathers and learn submission
early if we're going to be able to submit to our future husbands. Our fathers are such gifts of God, and are there to train
us to be godly women-women that will one day be wives and mothers. Yes, mothers are a daughter's closest mentor. But the
father/daughter relationship is SO crucially important-that relationship affects the rest of that daughter's life. It is a
relationship that largely goes by the wayside these days, whereas mother/daughter relationships are healthier. That is why
there is such an emphasis on the father/daughter relationship. It is something in desperate need of salvaging. This link may
be of interest to you: http://visionarydaughters.com/2006/10/what-about-mom
Congratulations on your 4 blessings and close anniversary! What a wonderful gift of God! :) Thank you for your kind words, and
please know that you are ALWAYS more than welcome to share your concerns and opinions on this blog! I thank you for your
comment, and want to especially thank you so much that it was issued in a loving manner.
May the Lord richly bless you and your family! :)
For Him alone,
Rebekah Ann
AnneK,
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. The Bible is applicable to everybody, everywhere, at all times.
Blessings,
Rebekah Ann
OK, thanks for answering, and that was what I thought you would probably say. Now I have to ask - what if the Lord took your mother too? Would you move in with another family you knew, or what?
ReplyDelete-Monika
Hello, Monika!
ReplyDeleteGreat question! If the Lord did take my mother as well(for instance, if tomorrow they were both killed in a car accident), then I would go to live with a family from church.
Have a blessed evening,
Rebekah Ann
How do you explain the Anglican nuns who were the forerunners of Social work in the UK? They are leading a monastic lifestyle and yet they are out there setting the groundwork for the field of social work? Are these good sisters sinning too? Or the nuns who ran the orphanages?
ReplyDeleteOr what about the women who went off to the wars to nurse soldiers? Many of these women were older married, or widowed women. Were they sinning because they were not tending the homefires?
During WW1 these women, including young unmarried women were given a wage. Many were Christians. Were they sinners too?
And Calamity Jean, I completely agree with what you have to say :)
And a mild, technical point of order...Paul wrote these letters, both the one to Timothy and Titus. Jesus did not.
I shall let Scripture speak for itself:
ReplyDelete"But this I say by way of concession, NOT OF COMMAND. Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the UNMARRIED and to the widows that IT IS GOOD FOR THEM IF THEY REMAIN even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
~ I Corinthians 7:6-9
"Now concerning VIRGINS I HAVE NO COMMAND OF THE LORD BUT I GIVE AN OPINION as one by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy."
~ I Corinthians 7:25
"But I want you to be free from concern. One who is UNMARRIED is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wif, and his interests are divided. THE WOMAN WHO IS UNMARRIED AND THE VIRGIN, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that SHE MAY BE HOLY BOTH IN BODY AND SPIRIT; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is seemly and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord."
~ I Corinthians 7:32-35
"So then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and HE WHO DOES NOT GIVE HER IN MARRIAGE WILL DO BETTER."
~ I Corinthians 7:38
"But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this - not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that NOTHING IS UNCLEAN IN ITSELF; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. "
~ Romans 14:10, 13-14
I conclude with this....
Rebekah,
You have your opinion on your specific role in life and to that end I respect you. I do not judge you for how you want to live your life as you see fit.
That said, please remember, do not judge those of us whose opinion differs. Especially on issues that have no bearing on salvation. To you it may be an "unclean" thing to remain a single woman and to work. But to many of us, it is "clean." Therefore, just as Paul wrote, resign to accept this as a difference of opinions and not of a matter of "sin."
As the verses in 1 Corinthians show, even Paul (a man of God who God spoke thru to write this letter) stated it was better to remain single than to marry for the sake of focusing on God and His work.
I respect you and your opinions for what best suits you and how you want to live for God.
But know this, I am not living in sin by being a single, unmarried, working woman. I am doing the will of God as HE has laid it upon my heart.
And with this, I conclude my end of this discussion.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteIf something is a sin, it's a sin for everybody no matter what. If someone says a lie in order to keep another person from getting hurt, or in order to be nice to someone, does that negate the fact that it's a sin? Of course not. Our circumstances or the reasons we do something do not dictate what a sin is-only God's Word can do that.
Paul penned the letter, but according to 1 Tim. 3:16, Jesus was the true Author of those books. That's what I meant.
May the Lord bless you this week!
Rebekah Ann
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
USA,
Thank you for the kindness with which you left this comment. :)
It's true that some are called to remain unmarried. But neither singleness or marriage is better than the other, necessarily. However, marriage is a picture of Christ and His bride, and so is a very blessed and special institution-in fact, it was the first institution created by Almighty God.
That Romans passage cannot refer to God's clear commands-it only refers to those things that are not directly commanded-the gray areas of life that are up to interpretation.
This issue has no bearing on salvation. But one of the ways we and others know we're saved is when we obey the Lord's commands. The Scriptures say in the book of James(I think that's the right book!) that the person who claims that he has God but doesn't do the commands of God is a liar. Now, obviously, this cannot refer to the person who is truly a Christian and disobeyes here and there every once in a while.
I agree. Not all people are called to be married(most are though), so for that person it may be an issue of a clean or unclean thing. But in areas of sin, that does not apply. I believe that it's so abundantly clear that what I'm saying in the area of Titus 2 is true: because doing anything at all to cause God's Word to be blasphemed is serious sin!!
I don't think the Lord will lay something on someone's heart that's a sin. If lying is a sin(which of course, it is) will the Lord lay it on your heart to commit that sin? Of course not. Likewise, if being in the workforce is a sin(which I firmly believe is what Titus 2 teaches), then the Lord will not lay it on your heart to do that. Just because the Lord doesn't personally come down and smack us when we're doing something wrong, doesn't mean that it's what He wants us to do. Sort of a strange analogy, but I guess it made my point. :)
May the Lord richly bless you this day!
Your sister in Christ,
Rebekah Ann
P.S. Always know that your input is welcomed at all times.
Sorry for the typo, Maggie! I meant to type 2 Tim. 3:16, not 1 Tim. 3:16!! :/
ReplyDeleteOne more final comment/concern.
ReplyDeleteYou agreed that not all are meant to be married. If that is so, then why is it a sin in your opinion for that single person to be working? How else are they to provide for themselves? No offense, but an adult child should not be still living at home. They need to be out on their own, being responsible for their own lives and not living off of their parents.
NT example of 2 women who did not live at home with their parents: Mary and Martha. Jesus blessed them and honored them for their service to Him.
Okay. I am done now. No offense, but this issue is like beating a head against a wall.
I do wish, though, that you would recognize this issue to be one of "clean" vs "unclean" opinions rather than "sin." Because nowhere in Scripture does it clearly state a woman is not to have a job.
USA,
ReplyDeleteAn adult daughter is to remain under the roof of her father until marriage. Her father is to provide for her-he's commanded to. Also, in Genesis and Matthew, we read that a man is to leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife-it doesn't say he shall leave his apartment or college campus. It appears that he may be supposed to remain in his father's home until marriage as well. But whether or not he is, it is Biblically clear that a daughter is to remain under her father's protection and provision until marraige(the Biblical case for this will be presented in a future article). Mary and Martha may have been living in their parents' home-they are not mentioned, so we don't fully know. Also, some of the context in John 11 seems to suggest that they were living with their brother, Lazarus-under his protection and provision.
I have 2 questions for you, if you don't mind answering them. First, don't you believe it's a sin when someone disobeys God's commands? Secondly, don't you think it's a huge offense against God when a Christian(or non-Christian for that matter) does something that causes God's Word to be blasphemed?
Have a blessed night,
Rebekah
Just as I am not going to go about changing your mind on this issue neither are you going to change my mind. Leave it at that.
ReplyDeleteI am NOT sinning by working nor am I sinning by living on my own. I am a grown woman with many more years experience (and have 4 yrs biblical training on a college level, as well) than you; and for some young girl to tell me, a grown woman who loves God and is doing His will where I am at, how I am to be according to her opinion is rather ridiculous!
I was rather hoping to find you to be a mature enough girl to respect others' viewpoints but I am finding that you are quite the opposite. Therefore, I am done here.
I am saddened to think that you believe all women who are living on their own and who work are sinners. Such feelings towards fellow Christian sisters on this issue should not be so. All I can do is hope and pray that you do not offend other fellow Christian sisters you come in contact with in such a manner that they hesitate to fellowship with you.
The respect I had for you and your opinions has turned to disgust as it is obvious you are going to continue in your belief that all women who live on their own and who work are sinners. It is not so much the opinion but rather the manner in which you have portrayed your opinion that is rather abrasive, harsh, cruel, unloving, and disgusting. I am thoroughly torqued.
And as such, I am making a choice to not engage in any further conversation with you. I much prefer to fellowship and associate with those Christian sisters who are loving and accepting toward others' opinions/viewpoints rather than going around fingerpointing at others saying "oooo...you bad sinner because you don't do what I believe."
Calling other Christian women sinners just because they choose to work or choose to live on their own is NOT your call nor is it your place! Especially since how you interpreted those verses completely out of context and put your own twist and viewpoint on them.
I am done. I have nothing more to say.
USA,
ReplyDeleteWhat in the world did I do between the time when you left your next to last comment and this one? In the other one you told me that you respected my opinion, and in this one you said that you're disgusted with me. What have I done? In my most recent comment with you, all I did was ask you 2 questions, so I can't understand why you're all the sudden so furious with me. You're continuing in your beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I'm disgusted with you. It's not fair to be disgusted with someone simply because they still hold to their beliefs. I've strived to be nothing but kind and loving throughout this whole conversation-I've even said that if at anytime I come across as rude, that I was very sorry. I wish you would tell me what I did all of the sudden. I really want to know so that I can apologize appropriately. You and I may disagree(as do I and many others on here) but we're still sisters in Christ, and I still desire Christian fellowship with all of you.
If I hurt you in any way at all, then please accept my apology. I have to say, I'm baffled by your change in attitude. I don't want to lose you as a blog reader or as a friend, so I pray that this can be resolved.
May the Lord be with you,
Rebekah
At the same time, regardless of my age, as a Christian, I am commanded to speak the truth in love. If someone is in sin(by God's standards, not man-made standards) then it is my God-given responsibility to point that out, to exhort and edify that brother or sister in Christ, and to seek to see them go back on the right path.
ReplyDeleteMy dear young girl, perhaps I need to speak more bluntly with you because it is obvious that my words of warning to you fell on deaf ears, as have the words of others.
God inspired the author of Titus 2:3-5 to write those words, did He not? And you are how old, fifteen?
You are obviously not an "aged woman" or even, by any stretch of the imagination, an older woman. God has not asked you to attempt to teach anyone anything. God, in fact, command that you respect those that are older, especially those with grey hair.
He has wisely ordained it that older women are to teach younger women the very things that you are attempting to expound, very dogmatically, here on your blog. You are out of line. God never anywhere in His word suggested that precocious young girls, no matter how clever and bold they are, no matter how cute and sweet, no matter how full of themselves they are, no matter whether or not they are good mommy's helpers and homemakers-in-training, should ever be expounding on homemaking, loving husbands, or the ways of godly women to anyone. You, my dear, should be sitting at the feet of older women, and learning from them in all meekness and quietness and reverence. Your role, at this stage in your very young life, is not to exhort and edify. It is to learn. It is to be exhorted and edified.
Frankly, I fear for you. Talk about the Word of God being blasphemed!
Normally I do not speak so harshly to children, but it is obvious that you did not listen to others who have warned you in much milder terms. Please repent. Let the older women teach. Do not usurp their role. Live about 30 more years, and then --- should you have proven yourself --- God may want to use you in this way.
Rebekah ~
ReplyDeleteMy question regarding the Israelites was whether or not you believe God considered it sin when, at the time the Ten Commandments were first given, the surrounding Gentile nations stole, coveted, committed adultery, etc.?
(Regarding the re-issuing of the Ten Commandments in the N.T. is another debate within Christian circles [New Covenant theology vs. Covenant & Old Covenant theology] and I have no desire to branch off into that debate here. )
I have no qualms about young people sharing God’s word, etc. But the very verse you are teaching about is specifically addressing the issue of older women teaching the younger women these things. How do you reconcile what you’re doing here with that specific command? Also, we are to ‘rightly divide the word of truth’ and I’m not convinced you are doing so. The Bible also cautions in James 3:1, “My brethren, be not many masters” (teachers, instructors). Maturity and responsibility do play a part in who is qualified to teach on such issues. Titus 2:5 makes it clear that the older women are best qualified to train the younger, married wives in their responsibilities before God.
You said early in your post”
“I believe that it is a sin for Christian women to not be homemakers”
“…simply because the plain truth and sad fact is that most people are not Christians). Therefore, it's not a sin for them [unbelievers] to be in the workforce”
In a much later comment you wrote the following:
“If something is a sin, it's a sin for everybody no matter what.”
You clearly contradict yourself.
Also, Titus 2:5 commands the older women to train the younger married women to love their husbands, love their children, be self-controlled and pure... in addition to keeping their homes, all so that the word of God be not blasphemed. By your reasoning, are we to conclude that unbelieving women, who do not love their husbands, do not love their children, are not self-controlled or pure are not sinning simply because this verse was written to Christian women? Do you not see the fallacy in your argument? If you’re going to call working outside the home sin it has to be sin for all women.
You said:
“We cannot be guardians of our homes if we are guarding our workplaces out in the workforce. How can you gaurd a home if you're rarely there?”
You are implying that anyone who earns a wage away from her husband’s or father’s home is ‘rarely there’ and that she does not keep and guard her home. That is quite a stretch and simply conjecture on your part. You have no way to back up an assertion like that.
There are Christian women who author books, and then go out of the home (and even out of state) to promote their books, doing interviews and such, and yet no one claims they are in sin for not guarding and keeping their homes because they are away from them for an extended period of time. How is it any different if a woman goes down the street to work for a few hours one or two nights at her local hospital as a nurse? Both are earning a wage for their labors, both are out of the home for a limited time, and yet you claim to be able to label one in sin and the other not.
It is clear from Titus 2:5 (and my conviction, I might add) that a married woman’s center is her husband, children and home. Her first and foremost responsibilities are to them. We’re not debating guarding one’s home versus ‘careerism’. But to conclude that it is sin for a woman to earn a wage away from her home in any and all circumstances may be extrapolating more from this verse in Titus than is really there. Consider the possibility that you may be guilty of adding to God’s word.
I think in many areas you have mishandled the Scriptures. We cannot discount Biblical history because the Bible says that the sum of God’s word is truth. To infer or imply that Ruth could have been in sin for working in the fields is a claim I have never before read or heard among Christians at any time. Also, what of the many women who traveled both with Jesus and Paul. We cannot categorically claim whether or not they remained under their fathers’ roofs until they were married.
We can’t build an entire theology around conjecture. In a later comment you said:
“…in Genesis and Matthew, we read that a man is to leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife-it doesn't say he shall leave his apartment or college campus. It appears that he may be supposed to remain in his father's home until marriage as well.”
The verses teaching a man to leave and cleave are speaking of the relationships he has with his parents and his wife. The relationship with his parents changes when he takes a wife and if a husband stays tied to his parents it will cause many marriage problems. To leave and cleave is not speaking literally of moving out of one dwelling and into another, but of the breaking (of sorts) of one relationship and the joining and clinging to of another. Are you really sure you want to infer that God is commanding men to remain under their parents roof until they (or if they don’t) marry? You’re taking on an awful lot there.
I do not agree with you in regards to the father/daughter relationship being in desperate need of salvaging in comparison to the mother/daughter relationship and other relationships. You just can’t back that up with Scripture. On the contrary, in I Corinthians we read of a young man who was immorally involved with his father’s wife. Should we argue therefore, that the mother/son or father/son relationship is thus more in need of salvaging? The parent/child relationship is of crucial importance, but what is even more crucial is one’s relationship with Christ. Even for those without the benefit of a healthy parent/child relationship, all things become new in Christ and He is able to restore the years that the locust have eaten.
If we want to talk about relationships in need of salvaging a better argument would be the marriage relationship. In our country it is in dire need of salvaging. With the church’s divorce statistics mirroring those of the world there is definitely a need for salvaging this relationship and I believe that the church has dropped the ball in this regard. To build an entire teaching around the father/daughter relationship (when the verses in the N.T. that speak to the parent/child relationship address children and not daughters specifically) seems highly questionable. And again, the Bible specifically commands older women, not men, to train the women in their role as wife and mother.
I do not have time to go over all of the things you said in your reply. But I am concerned that you have taken it upon yourself to proclaim your sisters in Christ to be in sin when the Lord Himself does not. I really have to agree with the other Rebecca when she wrote:
“One of the things He had to do in my life was to show me that it was simply flat out wrong (excuse me for being blunt) for a young thing to try to usurp the Titus 2:3-5 role that God clearly gave to the older women. There is a reason for that. As you grow older, and begin to live for God in a more real and mature way, as you leave behind childish things and thoughts, it will suddenly become clear to you why God never intended for young girls to attempt to tell older, wiser women how to be homemakers --- or even to judge whether or not they were homemakers!”
“I think her last statement, “God never intended for young girls to attempt to tell older, wiser women how to be homemakers --- or even to judge whether or not they were homemakers!” is appropriate.”
Sometimes it is wiser to remain silent on an issue until we are of an age and position to qualify us to teach on it. I think this is one of those issues. It isn’t wrong to hold to your convictions but the number of young, unmarried ladies teaching on this subject in direct contradiction to the command of scripture for older women to do so is disconcerting.
Remember, no one is arguing against the roles of wife, mother and home keeper in favor of selfish careerism. It’s one thing to be against the teachings of radical feminism and altogether a different thing to proclaim all Christian women who work in any capacity outside of the home to be in sin. I think you’re in danger of sowing discord among the brethren and laying burdens on your Christian sisters that the Lord and His word do not. I do not in any way believe that is what you’re aim or desire is, but I do think that time and more study on your part would benefit you greatly.
I’ll look forward to your post where you plan to biblically back up your assertions. Until then I must refrain from anymore discourse. I’m a busy wife, mother and home guardian
, and time constraints keep me from further debating it at this time. I also am finding it a bit futile because we obviously aren’t going to change each other’s mind at this point in time.
All the best!
PS – A few clarifications:
>Yes, I am familiar with George Mueller but suffice it to say that someday I think age and maturity will teach you to look at the burdens of your brethren in a different light.
>Proverbs 7 is speaking about the crafty harlot but she is a married woman. I agree that the Lord is not pleased with women who aren’t busy in there homes but my point was that we have no reason to believe that this woman worked outside the home in any capacity and yet she was rebellious. My point was that just because a woman doesn’t work outside the home doesn’t automatically mean she is keeping and guarding the home. (For the record I haven’t in any way thought you were putting forth that all women who work outside the home are harlots. By the same measure, I am not saying that a woman who guards and keeps her home can never set foot outside her home. Both are absurd views as you pointed out.)
>As for the Proverbs 31 woman I don’t see where she re-sold the field she purchased. I read that she considered a field and bought it and planted a vineyard.)
Minor points but just wanted to clarify.
But whether or not he is, it is Biblically clear that a daughter is to remain under her father's protection and provision until marraige(the Biblical case for this will be presented in a future article).
ReplyDeleteHi, Rebeckah. I'm Lynn, a nearly 50 year old wife and SAHM. I look forward to reading your article. It's interesting to me that there have been many single Christian missionaries who would not have agreed with this idea of yours which I placed in italics, above. The names Mary Slessor, Elisabeth Elliot, Amy Carmichael, Lottie Moon, and Betty Greene immediately came to mind, but there are many others.
They would probably say that you are taking something the Bible describes and giving it the force of a Biblical command that is binding on believers today. IOW, that you are saying what the Bible describes it also prescribes.
I suspect that when I read your upcoming article, that this is what I will find.
However, I commend you in placing a high value on the calling of wife and homemaker.
God bless you richly in your life.
Simplegifts3,
ReplyDeleteHello! It's a pleasure to meet you! :) Welcome to my blog; I hope to see you around here again soon.
Thank you for your comment.
Yes, you're exactly right in what you said about those female missionaries. But, even the most godliest and most wonderful of Christian women sometimes still get things wrong! It happens to the very best of Christian ladies.
Thank you for your kind words, and thank you for your interest in my upcoming article! :)
Many blessings,
Rebekah
Hi Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteI have recently discovered your blog and am impressed that a young lady has the courage to share freely her understanding of God, even if not everyone agrees with her.
That said, I am also thinking (hoping) that in a number of years, as you have gained more experience with the various way God leads us through this world of sin and the challenges he lays in our path, and grow in greater understanding of his love and how he reaches down to us fallen sinners, you will begin to see some things from a somewhat different perspective.
For many years, seemingly for longer than you have been alive, I have longed to be a stay-at-home woman. At the first I simply looked forward to getting married. After that finally happened, and after two children came along, I've dreamed of doing what seems to be the ideal for us -- staying at home and managing my home and teaching my children. This has been a heartfelt prayer of mine.
Sound good, don't you think? Sounds exactly like what God should answer with a resounding yes? Well, to my shock, that hasn't been the answer God gave me. Instead, three times --with miraculous circumstances at each time, particularly the last -- God has made it very clear, for reasons unknown to me, that right now he wants me working as a teacher outside the home.
As my children have started growing older and I longed to teach them at home (actually, my daughter attends a Christian school on the campus of the school where I work and I do supplementary work with her at home) my prayers for the opportunity to be at home have become more heartfelt, the answer has become stronger: God says "This is where I want you right now." In fact, I have been repeatedly directed to the verse in Phillippians about being content with my circumstances in life. "But God," I cry. "I'm wanting something good. What could be better than being home with my children?" His response has taken many forms: "My ways are not your ways." "Even good things can become idols -- in fact, good things like love for family or husband can actually do more evil because no one tends to notice when they start becoming dangerous." Who would say a parent's love for her child is bad? But it can be, when it comes between her and God.
I have absolutely no delusions that I'm in my job because I'm doing a good a good job. In fact, I feel I'm failing miserably. I'm a teacher and, oh sure, I can get the material across, but I'm not reaching the students for Christ like I would like to. So again, I cry, God, why won't you let me stay home? Then I wouldn't be damaging student's relationships with you (as I fear I do by presenting a harsh and un-loving picture). And again he says, "For I have learned to be content, whatever the circumstances." That's so hard.
I say I don't know why he's answering my prayer with a no, but maybe that isn't quite true. I'm starting to suspect that he is working through my job to refine some terrible character traits of mine. They must be pretty stubborn ones because it's been over 18 years and I don't seem to be making any progress.
I don't know quite how you would explain my situation. I suspect your options are either to think I'm lying, mentally unstable, or just confused -- that God really hasn't been keeping me in these positions and that if I just truly wanted to, I could go home for good. If the latter is the case, as I would suspect it would be, I'd like to ask yourself why you -- who have never been in this situation -- have any foundation (other than some Bible verses that you claim mean one thing, but that many people who have had much longer relationships with God than you have, believe mean something different) to say that your understanding of my situation is right and my understanding is wrong?
It's great to stand firm for your convictions, but I want to challenge you not to put God in a box. Many people in the Bible did that and missed out on the greatest blessings because they were then unable to recognize him at work because the way he worked didn't fit what they expected. Our God is the God of the unexpected (what could be more unexpected than coming as a baby with the sole purpose of dying?). He loves us so much that he'll work with us through all sorts of crazy methods. Don't tie him down to just the ones you happen to like. He loves you so much that if he feels he can't get through to you he will be willing to try something radical to get your attention, even if it brings you pain and you think "How can this be good for me?" Remember, God looks at the bigger picture, not the short here-and-now. What are a few (from his point of view, not mine) of years of me working outside home if it brings me to a better relationship with him. I may be crying "but surely he can do that when I'm at home", but perhaps he thinks this is the best way.
Read the Bible. Pray earnestly for God to convict you if you're wrong. Pray for him to lead you where HE wants you -- not just where you want to be. Pray that you will have the courage to accept that, even if it isn't what you expected. Pray for me that I can do the same and that if it will someday be his will, I will no longer have to work outside the home.
Finally, I'd just like to clarify one point, so I don't misunderstand you. Are you saying that single female these Christian missionaries were wrong? Mistaken? That all the people whom they brought to Christ shouldn't have been brought by them? What if I were to tell you that I was a descendant of one of the people brought to Christ by one of these women and that I owe my relationship to God in large part to them? Is my relationship with God inferior because it was a woman (who happened to be working outside her home) who was the one who introduced me to Christ? I'm really struggling to understand this idea. Yes, God can use anyone, including a man, but in this case he didn't. We can't change that fact -- for myself and for many people. Should I, if I were a non-Christian living in a land where a single missionary arrived, say sorry, please don't introduce me to Christ. I must wait for a man to do so? Again, I'm trying to wrap my mind around such a concept. Maybe -- I hope -- I'm totally misunderstanding what you are saying.
May God grant you his richest blessing and may you continue to grow in his will and understanding of all that his is.
Sincerely,
Sara
Dear Rebecca,
ReplyDeleteHello, Ma'am. Thank you for your comment.
I assure you that your words of warning did not fall on deaf ears. I am sort of wondering if
perhaps mine did, though. I understand fully what you're saying, and I understand where you're
coming from. Thank you for your concern.
I do,indeed, have great respect for my elders and thank God for them.
You claimed that God has not asked me to attempt to teach anyone anything. I must disagree
with you wholeheartedly, yet completely respectfully. God called Josiah to be King at age 8!
God called Jeremiah to be prophet to the Israelites around age 13! He obviously desired that
Jeremiah teach his elders and others the things of God! In 1 Tim. 4:12, we read that we are
to not allow anyone to despise our youth but are to be an example to the believers. The Lord often
takes the young and less experienced and used them to do great things for the sake of God's
Kingdom. I have a scenario for you, to attempt to allow you to see where I'm coming from. If
I met an atheist, because I'm young, would my responsibility from God to make disciples simply
fall by the wayside because that atheist is older than I am? Absolutely not! The Lord would
severely punish me for forsaking that opportunity to witness. I would be playing with that
person's soul and eternal destination, so to speak, because I refused to teach that person
the things of God due simply to my being younger than that atheist. Likewise, let's say I was
a newlywed and had just learned something wonderful and very helpful about loving my husband.
Let's say that there was a much older women that was struggling horribly with loving her husband.
Simply because Titus 2 specifically commands the older women to teach, does that mean that
I should not help out that Christian sister that is in desperate need? Of course not! The Lord
would rebuke me for my failure to show Christian love and help to this woman. Titus 2 specifially
commands the older women-in other words, older women: you must do this!! But this passage does
not say that younger women cannot be of help to older Christian women who are in need. It's
just saying that the older women must not fall down on their job, so to speak. Because, that's
exactly what is happening today. We have many feministic older women and non-feministic younger
women. These younger women are wondering what do I do!? Some of them don't even know how to
boil an egg. It's so crucial therefore that the older women teach, instruct and help the
younger.
I agree with you that I am to look to the older women and seek to learn from them. However, I
have another scenario for you, that I hope you will consider, to better understand what I'm
attempting to say. :) If there was an older woman(or man) that was attempting to teach me
that adultery isn't wrong, is it my responsibility to just sit under that teaching and false
exhortation? Absolutely not! It would be my job to lovingly, respectfully present to them my
view from the Scriptures themselves and seek to explain where I believe they're wrong. That
would not be out of line.
Also, in this discussion, I am not taking on the role of the older woman in Titus 2! I was
asked a question by AnneK, and so I did not ignore her, but rather answered it. Then, many
of my readers came at me with a bunch of what if questions. I simply responded to those and
defended my belief. As a Christian, I am to answer people's questions about my beliefs or doctrine
and when my beliefs are pushed down, I am to defend them. That's a Christian's duty no matter
what the age of that Christian. The difference is that the younger Christian must be oh so
very, very careful to answer in a respectful way to that person's elders. I must say that
it's really frustrating to be so ridiculed and criticized when all I did was answer people's
questions. I didn't want to ignore them! Many of the women here wanted to understand better
where I was coming from, and wanted to hear what I had to say. That's all I did, and to be
ridiculed for not ignoring these people is really disheartening to say the least. What was I
supposed to do? Simply ignore the questions?
I want you to know that I have repented. But not of answering questions. I've repented of the
possibility that at some point(perhaps without realizing it) I've been rude or disrespectful.
I've apologized many times just in case I did come across that way. And I have repented before
the Lord of that possible sin in my life. I'm an abundantly sinful person saved by only God's merciful
grace, and so I have repented of the possibility of hurting someone or being disrespectful
when I wholeheartedly did not mean to.
Thank you, Ma'am for your input. Please know that I do understand where you're coming from,
and I ask that you please read carefully what I've typed here, that you may understand more
where I am coming from.
I pray that the Lord richly blesses you this weekend.
In Christ alone,
Rebekah
Numbers 6:24-26
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hello, Denise! Thank you for your input.
Yes, I believe that disobeying the 10 Commandments was a sin for the Gentiles at the time
they were issued to the Israelites. Because those commandments were a part of the mark that
all of us humans fall short of. Being a homemaker is not part of that mark. I did not
contradict myself. You took that comment of mine out of context. If you go back and read it,
I was speaking about Christian women who find themselves in various hard situations, where
they may find themsleves feeling as if they must go to the workforce, or women who may feel
like their working out in the workforce may somehow be bringing about much good for somebody.
It was in that context that I said a sin is a sin for everybody, no matter what. Clearly, in
the context of my comment I was referring to Christian women.
You asked how I can reconcile what I'm doing to the fact of what Titus 2 says. Please read
the above comment that I left for Rebecca.
There isn't fallacy in my argument regarding it only being a sin for Christian women to be
homemakers, because all of the other commands that are in Titus 2:5 are issued to other people elsewhere
in the Scriptures, and as part of the mark where we fall short. For instance, in the OT,
everyone was commanded to love their neighbor as themselves(this includes loving your
husband, children, parents, friends, acqauintances, extended family, pastor, etc.). Everyone
is also commanded to be good and chaste. We see in the book of Gen. that it's a sin to not
submit to your husband's leadership and to seek to rule over him. In the book of Proverbs,
we see that a woman without discretion is like a pig with a jewel in its snout. As you see,
all of these other commands and issues are issued to everyone in other places of Scripture.
But the command to be a homemaker is clearly only issued to Christian women-under the heading
in our English Bibles of "Qualities of a sound CHURCH".
I have 2 questions for you, if you don't mind answering them. First off, do you believe it's
a sin for someone to disobey one of God's commands? And secondly, do you believe it's a sin
for a Christian(or non-Christian, for that matter) to do something that would cause God's
Word to be blasphemed?
I did not say that Ruth was in sin. I said that she wasn't because that command hadn't been
issued yet.
I was asked about the women who followed Jesus before, on another person's blog, when I was
in this very same discussion. Here is what that woman said: ""The fact is, twice in the NT
we have records that Jesus had women who followed Him around on a regular basis. Meaning,
they were not home-keepers. And He didn't try to stop them---rather, they seem to be spoken
of in a positive light."
My various repsponses to this were:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As to women following Christ, for one thing, when these women first started walking after
Him, they weren't Christians! And the command to be a homemaker is only given to Christian
women. Secondly, these women(such as Joanna) could have been homemakers before they followed
Him. But at that point, what's more important-acquiring salvation, or keeping the house
(something that she wasn't even commanded to do, because at the time she wouldn't have
been saved)? Of course we would agree on the answer to this.
As to Jesus' women disciple
s, we can't read into this either. For all we know, the married ones(if there were for sure
married followers) had their husbands right there with them. They may have had no real home
-they could have been nomads of sorts, when they followed Christ. We really can't read into
these different passages.
As to your arguement regarding the female followers of Christ, there's something I would
like to point out. It's very clearly a sin to lie. However, Rahab the harlot is praised in
Hebrews because of her faith and protection of the Hebrew spies. However, in the process,
she lied. At face value, we'd think ok, hang on a minute. She's not condemned for telling
that lie!! Rather, she's praised for her faith. She should have been even more full of faith
, and trusted the Lord to protect the spies and should have not lied or felt like she had to
. While all this may be true, she nonetheless is not condemned for this lie. Does that fact
somehow negate the command to not lie? Of course not!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The passages in Genesis and Matthew regarding a man leaving his father and mother teach what
I said as well as what you said, I believe. I didn't say dogmatically that men were therefore
commanded to remain under their father's roof until marriage. I said that they might
be commanded to-I wasn't really fully sure.
I was not saying on the basis of Scripture that the father/daughter relationship is in more
need of salvaging than the mother/daughter one. I was saying that on the basis of history and
what is going on in our culture(and other cultures) today. Please read that link I gave you.
I agree that the marriage relationship is in DESPERATE need of salvaging. And I also agree
that a mother should be training her daughter to be a wife and mother and homemaker. But the
father is to train his daughter as well. Perhaps not in the are of mother or homemaker, but
definitely in the area of being a wife. That girl's father is a husband and so knows(like no mother or daughter
can) what a husband needs from his wife. This father can provide his daughter will invaluable
training and help.
Ma'am you wrote: "Sometimes it is wiser to remain silent on an issue until we are of an
age and position to qualify us to teach on it." Does that mean that I was in sin when I
answered AnneK's questions or any other woman's questions? It would have been sinful to ignore
these women! Please read the above comment I left for Rebecca, if you don't mind.
I understand that you must indeed be very busy! :) What a blessed reason for being busy, huh? :)
You said: "Yes, I am familiar with George Mueller but suffice it to say that someday I
think age and maturity will teach you to look at the burdens of your brethren in a different
light." I would like to know(if you don't mind my asking) in what area I was wrong. I'm always
interested in becoming more educated, so would like to learn where I was perhaps wrong.
It doesn't say that she resold the field. My paraphrase that was in my head was wrong! I'm
sorry! :/ However, the text does say that out of her profits she planted a vinyard. where
could she have gotten those profits if she didn't buy the field and then sell it at a higher
rate?
Thank you for your comments, Ma'am! May you have a blessed holiday weekend.
The Lord be with you,
Rebekah Ann
Hello, Sara!
ReplyDeleteYou seem like such a dear woman, and it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you for your comment,
and welcome to my blog! I hope to see you around more in the future! :)
I'm not going to say that you're lying! Nor do I think you are. I believe you're telling the
truth. I also still believe what I believe about Titus 2. How can I reconcile those, you say?
Because as you said, our ways are not God's ways. God sometimes has plans for us that are
crazy to our thinking. God can and often does bring good out of what may very well be a sin.
And I think that's what He's doing in this instance. Perhaps there's someone at that school
to lead to Christ, who otherwise would never hear of Christ. Does this negate what Titus 2
plainly teaches? Absolutely not. It just shows that the Lord can bring good out of what might
not be the best thing in the world. I will definitely pray for you heartily! :) I'll pray that
you will be able to lead others to Christ, that your children will not be turned astray in
any way at all(which is sometimes so easy in even the best of Christian schools), that you will
be able to go home and teach your children as soon as possible, that you would know the Lord's
will without a shadow of a doubt, and that He would bless you and refine you.
I agree that it's wrong to put God in a box! We're finite little humans, whereas He's infinite!!
You said:"Pray for him to lead you where HE wants you -- not just where you want to be." I
had to laugh when I read this. :) I did NOT think the way I do now untl about a year
and a half ago. When the Lord began to show me various truths of Scripture, I was VERY rebellious
and sought to kick and scream and fight against Him. I didn't even know there was a Titus 2:5, I was
so ignorant! :( I was very stubborn. But the Lord kept with me and continued to break my
shell and reveal to me His Scriptural truth. So, this was(for a long time) not where I
wanted to be and this is not what I wanted to believe! But, the Lord in His grace and mercy,
stuck with me and taught this stubborn child many things. I'm still on that reforming path(as,
I believe, all Christians are). TO God alone be the glory.
I believe that if stay-at-home daughterhood and Titus 2 are true(as I firmly believe they are,
and I will show my Scriptural case for the former in an upcoming article series.), then these
women were disobeying this aspect of Scripture. But, again, the Lord brings abundant good
out of sin and hard times. The fact that these women brought so many to Christ is a WONDERFUL
thing. The fact that you're a descendant of one of these converts is a WONDERFUL thing!! It
would be absurd for the natives(the people these women were trying to reach) to refuse to
listen simply because the missionaries weren't men. But the Scriptures show that a female
is to be under the protection and leadership of either her husband or father at all times.
Many of these women(not all) were void of protection. And, the ends don't justify the means.
If these women were doing a great thing(while disobeying something taught in Scripture in order
to do that great thing), that doesn't mean that their lifestyles were perfectly Biblical. But
the Lord did bring much good from what these women did.
Thank you for desiring to understand me better, rather than just putting words in my mouth, etc.
:)
May the Lord be with you this day!
Rebekah
From Titus 2:
ReplyDelete1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
6 Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, 7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.
9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.
While we all know, of course, that the topic headings in our Bibles are not part of the inspired Word of God, it is interesting that a number of Bibles head this passage with something along the lines of, "Duties of younger and older". This passage is addressed, as is the entire epistle, to Titus, so we can't pretend that it gives each one of us carte blanche to usurp a teaching and/or admonishing role that is not ours.
It is interesting to note that no role is given to children in this passage. The young women mentioned are assumed to be adult women, with husbands and homes. It is the responsibility of the older women to set a godly standard of behavior and to teach the younger women, both in example and in word.
The young women are to apply those lessons in their own lives. They are not given a teaching role.
The children aren't even mentioned
Rebecca,
ReplyDeleteThis last comment of yours never came through to my e-mail. Thankfully, I went to your blog and saw that you posted it there, so I posted it here, using your name(since I don't have your google account, obviously!), since it was quite clear that 1. you wanted it posted and 2. you should have your voice heard.
This may come as a surprise to you, but I agree with what you said in this comment. :)
Blessings,
Rebekah
P.S. Would you please e-mail me at living_for_my_Lords_glory@hotmail.com with your e-mail address? I want to address something you said in a post of yours, but I'm pretty sure you don't want me commenting on your blog, because if I did, it would leave a link back to mine. Thanks.
Rebecca,
ReplyDeletePlease notice that in my e-mail address, there is no appostrophe in "Lords"-hotmail.com doesn't allow commas, etc. I just wanted to point that out so that your e-mail to me would go through!
Rebecca,
ReplyDeleteIn one of my most recent comments to you, I said that I suspected that my comment to you fell on deaf ears. When I wrote that, I didn't realize how disrespectful it sounded. I want to humbly apologize to you for that comment. It was indeed very out of line.
Respectfully sincere,
Rebekah
Hi Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I would like to say that you are a very polite young woman and your desire to study your Bible and live out God's commandments is very admirable.
I hesitate to comment because I don't want you to feel 'ganged up on', but as a wife (though not a wife who works), I do feel I need to speak up about some of your interpretations of Scripture.
Firstly, I would say that the ladies who have focussed on your young age aren't doing so to "ridicule" you, as your comment above suggests. Truly, they aren't. When we talk about age, we are only doing so because the Bible has done so, in Titus 2.
You are absolutely right that being 15 does not mean you cannot have opinions, offer advice, and even teach. You can do all those things, if you are able. However, God has already decided who should be teaching wives and homemakers. He makes it very clear in Titus 2: it's OLDER WOMEN. Not older women plus - just older women. Now, if you are looking at Titus 2 and saying that the commandment to be "busy at home" means we must not work for wages outside the home, how can you say that "let the older women teach the younger women" actually means "let the younger women teach everyone"?
But, what if you have an amazing insight? OK. Here's the thing though - there is no way that you can. Your analogy of the happily married young wife and the unhappily married older wife doesn't work, because you are NOT a wife. And (I speak from experience here!!) an unmarried girl has NO idea about what being in a Godly marriage is like. No matter how wonderful your parents are, honestly - they aren't you. You DON'T have a wonderful marriage, so you aren't qualified to give advice to married women. You are too young to work, you don't run your own house - so you just aren't allowed 'special dispensation' to be a teacher.
For example, I am a young wife. But I regularly teach and train women of all ages in sewing and embroidery. I've been sewing since I was old enough to hold a needle. I don't boss people around, but I am a teacher. Of SEWING. Not of anything else. My younger sister is an AMAZING cook. I am a decidedly average cook. But I wouldn't dream of advising her about cooking, even though I'm older. She's the expert. I have never managed to get pastry right (I think it's my warm hands, LOL!) so what possible justification could there be for me telling everybody how to make it?
As I already said, I commend you for being so polite and ready to discuss your ideas with others. That is an attitude that will bring you closer to the Lord! But, and I say this with great humility, although the keyboard isn't always good at getting it across, I think that when discussing the Bible it is always best to remember that nobody is completing right in all their Scriptural interpretations. Nobody! You can't be! No sinful human, no matter how intelligent and earnest a student of the Word they are, is entirely right about every part of the Bible. Lord knows, I am wrong about lots of stuff.
I think in these kinds of discussions it's helpful to remember that 'So many of my ideas now MUST be wrong. What if this is one of them?' There's no shame in it - I absolutely am NOT saying this to shame you! - but it helps me to stay humble and to remember that I know so little of God's ways.
A final point. I have always understood the command to be 'busy at home' to mean 'not to sit about in one's pyjamas drinking tea and watching soaps while there's a mountain of washing to be done!'. As in, be BUSY at home, not LAZY at home. I think a lot of your argument that one cannot be a keeper at home if one works outside the home is predicated on YOUR house and YOUR responsibilities. Some women have small apartments and only them and their husbands in them. Some have tiny babies. Some have grown children, or older teenagers. Different circumstances mean different things that need to be done. My mother has only three big teenagers left at home, and when they have done their chores, there is very little left for her to do! When we lived in Africa, we employed many local people - to keep the garden, to cook, to clean. With such high poverty and unemployment, wealthy people are OBLIGED to help as many less fortunate people as they can. So Mum had hardly any work left to do. She didn't take a job, but she spent at least two hours a day in charity work. Similarly, some women have husbands who love helping! My father in law is an AMAZING cook. He LOVES making new things and happily spends hours making the most delicious things. Since he retired, he is happily massively expanding his repertoire and my mother in law rarely needs to cook! Do you see what I'm trying to say? Every family's home is different. Every wife and mother's chore load is different. Just because YOU (and I - I don't work at the moment, and it's just me and my husband!) couldn't run a home properly and work for wages outside the house, doesn't mean that a different woman can't.
There are some other things I'd like to say too, but I'll leave it for now. I will just say, though, that if I were you I would read back over what you said about Mary Slessor, Elisabeth Elliot, Amy Carmichael, Lottie Moon, and Betty Greene. "even the most godliest and most wonderful of Christian women sometimes still get things wrong!" I think you should pray hard over this. The women listed above are given near-universal praise for their holiness and devotion to God. Generations of men and women have praised their great achievements. If they had lived as you advise, they would not have achieved what they did. Are you REALLY saying, that in your opinion, the things which have earned these women such great praise from so many Christians over the years, those things weren't holy at all but they were actually in sin? Rebekah, though you are unfailingly polite to people who comment here, statements like these, about such well-respected and admired Christian ladies, sound terribly, terribly arrogant.
Hello, Claire!
ReplyDeleteWelcome to my blog, and thank you for your comment and kind words. I hope to see you around
here in the near future.
I agree that Titus 2 commands only older women. But, as I pointed out in an above comment
to Rebecca, that doesn't mean that a younger woman can't help train an older woman if she needs
help-we, as Christians, are to help anyone we come across who is in need. It's our Christian
duty.
When I say that you can't be a homemaker and work outside the home, what I mean is this: when
someone asks you what you do, you(I'm using the word in general here :)) say, "I'm a homemaker"
or "I'm a waitress" or "I'm a doctor". You don't say that you're a homemaker and police officer,
for instance. Either you're a homemaker or you're someone who works in some profession in
the workforce.
I was using that analogy if I was a wife. Perhaps I should use the following analogy instead:
let's say that I just learned a helpful tip on remaining emotionally and mentally chaste, but
there's an older woman that's struggling severely in this area. It's my duty to help her. You're
right that I don't truly know what it's like to be in a godly marriage. But, because I live
day in and day out with a couple that does, I'm able to view it and see and understand to some
degree(perhaps a small degree :)) what it's like.
You sort of agreed with me(or perhaps just understood more of where I'm coming from) in one
section of your comment, when you spoke of your younger sister training you in the subject
of pastry making. She's younger than you, so she's a younger women teaching an older one, but
she's doing so to help you-not to usurp your role to teach her.
You're so right about what you said about keyboards! They've cause me SO many problems. :/
I keep being accused of being disrespectful by something I said. But that's due 100% to the
keyboard, for I'm not meaning to come across as disrespectful at all!!
I do ask the Lord often to show me the areas where I may be wrong-I'm not wanting to be
called right all the time; rather, I want to be correct simply because I want to know the
Lord and His Word better. I desire to know what it truly says.
I agree that all homes are different. But if you work in the workforce you aren't a homemaker.
If you're a homemaker you don't work in the workforce, simply by the dictionary definition
of homemaker. You're right in what you said about the huge importance on being BUSY at home.
But we have to place an equally important emphasis on the fact that it says busy AT home.
I think that what those women did was very holy work for the Lord. But, if my belief is right
(which I believe it is-I'll Scripturally back it up in that future article series), then
they went about it the wrong way. That's all I was trying to say. I still have the utmost
respect for these amazing women.
May the Lord richly, richly bless you!! :)
Rebekah Ann
Hi Rebekah, I have nothing more I want to say to you. What I wanted to I already did and has been also said by women older and more mature than me. Thanks for answering my question.
ReplyDeleteI hope that the Lord will have mercy on you and make you more teachable and open to hearing what he has to say rather than accepting a party line hook, line, and sinker. The many years I have been a Christian, the Lord has been teaching me what it means to be conformed to his image. In the process, I have been made to eat humble pie many times. Being a Christian is a continuous changing and molding of the person who God wants you to be.
I kind of regret asking you the question. I never imagined you would set yourself up so high as a teacher. And I would be very very afraid Rebekah, when you compare this to lying, atheism etc. There is a HUGE difference. If you have an atheist friend, you can always share the gospel of salvation with him/her. But that is not the same as setting yourself up in a pedestal and TEACHING OLDER CHRISTIAN women (based on only your opinion) that having a career outside home is a sin.
A homemaker is a person who manages a household. Especially based on your lack of experience, it is illogical for you to say that a woman who has a career cannot manage a home.
Have a safe trip.
Hello Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"But the Scriptures show that a female is to be under the protection and leadership of either her husband or father at all times. Many of these women(not all) were void of protection. And, the ends don't justify the means. If these women were doing a great thing(while disobeying something taught in Scripture in order to do that great thing), that doesn't mean that their lifestyles were perfectly Biblical."
Which Scriptures show that a female is to be under the protection and leadership of either her husband or father at all times? By God's grace and Spirit we can be doers of God's Word, and I'd like to have clarification on the verses that teach this. Thanks so much.
Kathleen,
ReplyDeleteHi! :) Thanks for your comment. Welcome to my blog; I hope to see you around here more in the near future.
I will be presenting all of those Scriptures in my future article series on stay-at-home daughterhood. Be on the lookout for that! Thank you for your interest!
AnneK,
ReplyDeleteHello! Thank you for your comment.
I agree with you-the Christian walk is a never ending mission of sanctification! We must remain humble and teachable at all times-but not so teachable that we fall for anything, obviously! :) I strive to have a teachable spirit, and I believe I do. One of my greatest desires is to learn as much as I can-especially in the area of theology. And when the Lord teaches me something, I desire to share it with others, in the desire to help them as well in their Christian walk with the Lord.
Please don't regret asking the question. I'm glad you did. I didn't set myself up as a teacher-only a defender of the faith and I defender of the doctrines and beliefs that I hold dear. That's all.
It's not simply my opinion that doing something that would cause God's Word to be blasphemed is a sin-it's Biblical fact.
All sin(in God's eyes) is on the same level of sinfulness. In our eyes, we might think that the sin of murder is more sinful than the sin of lying. But that's not the case in God's sight. So, if it's a sin to be a homemaker, then that's on the same level as the sin of lying or not believing in God(in God's eyes, anyway, because sin is sin).
A woman who has a career may be able to manage her home rather well. But she isn't a homemaker. When we ask someone what they do, and they respond that they're a homemaker, that would probably make 9 out of 10 people assume that she doesn't have an outside job. Because that's the dictionary's definition of homemaker! That, therefore, is what would immediately come to our mind.
Thank you. :)
May you be richly blessed, Ma'am!
Rebekah Ann
AnneK,
ReplyDeleteIf I EVER set myself up on a pedestal then I would beg the Lord to shove me off of it. And I'm not kidding!! I have no high and mighty thoughts of myself, and pray that I never will-I am only a desperately wicked, wretched sinner saved only by the abundant, merciful grace of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If I EVER came across as being on a pedestal, then please accept my most humble, heart-felt apology!
Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteI found your blog yesterday through a link on Maidens of Honor and I have really enjoyed the articles I have read so far. I really like how in-depth they are and that you use scripture to back up what you say. From what I have read my doctrine lines up quite closely to yours so I am REALLY glad I found your website. Like a lot of girls I feel alone sometimes in what I believe.
I can’t wait to read more!!
God bless,
~Becca A 16 yr. old Northern New Yorker
oh oops I meant to post this on your "oh, how I've missed you all" post but oh well! ;-)
ReplyDeleteHi Rebekah,
ReplyDeleteIs there any chance of you changing the format of the comments so that they open in a new page rather than in a pop-up box?? These longer threads of comments get terribly hard to follow, esp. regarding who said what--which might be seen as important in a thread like this! ;-)
[If you're so inclined, there's a way to do this with the Settings-> Comments -> Comment Form Placement radio button.]
Hi, Mel! Absolutely! That's the way I used to have the comment section set up, but then thought that this way may be easier for those who have a lot they want to respond to in one of my posts, but (if it were a seperate page) would have to keep going back to the post to remember all they wanted to say, and then would lose their comment that they had typed up so far. Am I making any sense? :) But, I suppose those people could just bring up a seperate window themselves so that they could see the blog post itself while typing the comment.
ReplyDeleteThank you for drawing my attention to this problem! I will absolutely change it for you.
Have a blessed day,
Rebekah
It is now fixed for you, Mel! :)
ReplyDeleteRebekah,
ReplyDeleteI have just stumbled upon your blog and am enjoying it greatly. I've been surprised to find how closely our beliefs line up. I'm 17 now and have yet to meet a single girl (other than on blogs) who hold to the same "wierd" views that I do. Your blog has been such an encouragment!
Have a great week!
~Tayler
By the way, the reason that I commented on this particular post, was that I wanted to let you know that I am amazed at the respectful, Christ-like manner you used in replying to so many comments. I am afraid that I might have lost it and just forgot about being polite. :)